Women25

thats a good in-depth answer. thanks

again true dat

true

yeah me too

will do. thanks

very true. not a big fan either but she holds my attention. i went for delirious?

The problem is that it's not just a can of worms. It's Pandora's box. If you exclude verbal inspiration and decide that some things in the Bible are merely human opinions, then literally everything is up for grabs. Since liteally anything could theoretically be one of those purely human things, nothing in the Bible has any authority unless I want it to. That's exactly how the ELCA got into the mess it's in. Once you take that step, there is simply no authority in the Church and no inherent content to the Faith.

Now, this is not to say that there are not some things which the Bible itself makes clear are culturally conditioned. Contrary to the argument we often hear, it nowhere endorses slavery; it merely regulates it- and with Paul's argument to Philemon set the stage for its elimination. Luther pointed out that only the Jews were liberated from bondage in Egypt, and argued on that ground (with some support from Paul) that only they were obligated to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest. Even the rabbis agree that Gentiles do not sin when they eat ham or violate one of the other OT laws which God only gave to the Jews. Paul's argument about men uncovering their heads during worship and women covering them was not an attempt to create a new law to bind consciences, but precisely a reversal of the requirement in the OT that the rule be directly reversed. The historical-grammatical method (the method traditionally used in the Church, before the historical-critical method was invented) has no problem with looking at the internal evidence within Scripture to see what is time conditioned and what is binding for all time.

In the case of women pastors, though, Paul bases his argument on creation. His very argument excludes the possibility the prohibition is time-conditioned. Unfortunately, that means as a practical matter that you can't have women pastors without directly disobeying what Scripture explicitly says is not only a divine command, but one rooted in creation itself and therefore in force for all time.

One more thought. I would ask for examples of women serving as evangelists in the NT. There is no question that there were prophetesses, but that's a different issue. Prophets and prophetesses were not occupants of an office bearing authority; whatever authority they had came from the genuineness of their message. Prophets were charismatic leaders who arose when they arose, and had the gifts they had. That's a completely different matter than holding the pastoral office- an office instituted by God and invested with authority of such a nature that by Paul's argument it is closed to women.

I didn't open the can, I just shook a can that was already open. This is what came out. ;-)

For what it's worth, I feel the same as you, for the most part. I hate to hear people dance all around a topic like this. It's not about women pastors. It's really a much more fundamental question about what you believe about the Bible.

man you are opening a can of worms with that! :) I think the interesting thing about this idea is that the bible actually does not sell itself as the ultimate canon of truth. I have been raised to unquestionably believe otherwise... All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
On the subject of women teaching I think Paul was addressing a situation where women were causing problems by creating cross chatter or rabbit chasing. Paul was focusing on a social issue... women were not respecting their husbands and Paul was giving guidance on that subject. The rule of Thumb is " Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself" Under that definition as long as women are respecting the God Ordained authority of her husband then she is welcome to exhort and teach others. as far as Pastorship... that is another conversation completely... and depends on quite a few definitions

Really, nobody is discussing the underlying question. At the root of this topic is the question of human influence on the Bible. There are those who believe that every word of the Bible is a direct quote from God, and there are others who believe that the Bible is a collection of historical accounts, written by people who were inspired by God, in order to point to God.

The real question here is: is it possible that the Bible contains social biases that existed during the time of authorship, editing, and compilation? I'd love to offer an answer but, frankly, I'm still trying to seek one out for myself.

Check out the book, Phoebe, by Dr. Charles White. Some women can be called of God to minister in various ways. Why limit God and who He can use as He wills for His purpose?

@renee' mentioned Deborah. The reason why Deborah became the leader was because the men are abdicating their responsibilities. When men don't take their places in the ministry God called them to be, God is left with no other option but to use the other available vessel. I am not a fan of Joyce Meyer's but I think she's great. For the men who complain about her being up there preaching, I got one (purely hypothetical) question: why aren't you up there?

There is a huge differance between women pastors and women evangelist. A women should never be her husbands pastor as that would make her his spiritualy authority, however there is no problem with a women teaching and preaching as does joyce meyer and melisa scott is a widow so she is not over her husband. Pauls statement is one of his many where he makes it obvious its his opion. God did not give all men authority over all women but rather the wife is to submit to her own husbands authority. The are examples of women being in authority over men in the bible one ex is deborah.

Good example

Renee I agree. There are obvious cases of women being evangelists that are very Godly, and soundly rooted in the Bible.

I think it is interesting that you mention Deborah, because God put her in such authority because Barak was in modern day terms a whim and wouldn't do what God told him to.

Very true. Hmm...

Valuable thoughts and advices. I read your topic with great interest.

I don't know enough about God's word on women teaching or preaching. I haven't heard very many women preach but I can say that the only one that I like is Pastor Melissa Scott. She is fluent in several languages really helps me to understand the original language and how it's translated to English. I believe she speaks and reads Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Spanish I think. I wish all preaching was done the way she does it, I understand the Bible so much better after hearing her preach. http://www.pastormelissascott.com/ I see her on the Christian channel here once in a while. Her husband used to preach up until he died of Cancer then she took over.

Awesome

I agree with Prudence.

Good deal

I think a woman's perspective is a little different than a man's... they see God a little differently than we do. I'm ok with women pastors; I really can't think of a significant reason not to be. I know there is some OT passages that differ with this, and a lot of my Baptist friends would differ with that as well.

Ha. Baptists. I used to b 1 of those

Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:12 that he does not permit women to teach or have authority of men. I know that this is extremely looked down upon in modern culture. My personal opinion is that a woman should be allowed of course to teach other women. I think that there are certain circumstances that a wife can join/assist her husband in "teaching" a mixed company congregation, but the teaching should come from the man. An example would be Mark Driscoll taught through Song of Solomon and had his wife assist him in answering questions from the congregation. Perry Noble from Newspring in Anderson, SC will be doing the same thing when he does a series on marriage.

If we don't want to take Paul's word, then we can take God's when in Genesis he puts woman under the authority of her husband. In my opinion the same authority applies to men having authority in teaching at church.

Good stuff