Beer Anyone?76

When you become a "leader", you move into a glass house. Everything you do is on display both in public and in private. I don't think you can necessarily compartmentalize your life. People know who you are whether you think they do or not, and they are watching.

I personally don't drink because I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I think it's ok. You should be an example of "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable..." I'm just trying to work on those things for now. : )

Actions always speak louder than words.
My recent post Things I learned from Princess Miley today…I

When you become a "leader", you move into a glass house. Everything you do is on display both in public and in private. I don't think you can necessarily compartmentalize your life. People know who you are whether you think they do or not, and they are watching.

I personally don't drink because I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I think it's ok. You should be an example of "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable..." I'm just trying to work on those things for now. : )

Actions always speak louder than words.
My recent post Things I learned from Princess Miley today…I

When you become a "leader", you move into a glass house. Everything you do is on display both in public and in private. I don't think you can necessarily compartmentalize your life. People know who you are whether you think they do or not, and they are watching.

I personally don't drink because I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I think it's ok. You should be an example of "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable..." I'm just trying to work on those things for now. : )

Actions always speak louder than words.
My recent post Things I learned from Princess Miley today…I

When you become a "leader", you move into a glass house. Everything you do is on display both in public and in private. I don't think you can necessarily compartmentalize your life. People know who you are whether you think they do or not, and they are watching.

I personally don't drink because I don't ever want to give anyone the impression that I think it's ok. You should be an example of "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable..." I'm just trying to work on those things for now. : )

Actions always speak louder than words.
My recent post Things I learned from Princess Miley today…I

some arguments just never change.

again, i am not here to condemn cause i have enough problems in my life. i am here to just give thought to the matter

I think that it is a personal conviction. On the same hand when it comes to church leaders, even with that in mind, they are held to a higher standard. At the same time could it be considered hypocritical to say I don't drink in public but it's okay for me to drink at home in private?

yep. thats prob y we shouldnt drink at all

I think it depends on his own convictions and also what the culture around him is doing. In Germany where I will be serving it is perfectly okay to have a beer or drink wine. I think here in America we associate drinking with getting drunk. In Europe it seems to be different. People still get drunk but it seems like a lot less than here in the states.

I think you hit it on the head with "don’t make others stumble." As a Christian, I do believe it is ok to have about up to a glass of wine a day (though personally, I may perhaps only partake of a glass of wine two times a year). However, all things considered, it depends who you are around. If it "offends" my Christian brethren (or perhaps non-brethren...) while fellow-shipping, I shouldn't partake.

Two scriptures to back up what I'm saying are:

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Ephesians 5:18

And:

But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 1 Corinthians 8:9

Concluding, two basic rules: Don't get drunk and don't drink around anyone at all if if offends them.

By the way, congratulations on your success online, looks like you are doing well. It's all about the traffic and it looks like you are getting it (60 comments on this post alone, fhew!).

While this topic has brought up much debate and division in the Church I stand more on the side of drukedness is a sin but drinking isn't. I tend to feel out the enviroment I am in. Just like anything else that is not stated clearly as a Sin we must be wise in what we do. If we are in an enviroment where it is not seen as proper it may be best to not order the drink. Especially if we are doing it to make a statement as if to say, I can do this no matter what you think. Consider others above yourself. So for me it is about knowing your surroundings and not causing another believer to stumble but at the same time be wise and do things with a right motive.if that makes sense.

I think the idea of right vs. privilege comes to mind. We have the privilege to enjoy alcohol but we're told by Paul that if it causes others to stumble to abstain. I would hope we are desiring the Kingdom of God more than our "right" to drink a beer.

Then you have the Christians who drink the beer solely for the shock factor. You know, the guys who say, "Hey, let's go get a beer" then look around the room to make sure everyone heard them to see if anyone is pissed. Kind of pathetic.

I enjoy a beer here and there. I don't drink in front of the high school kids I mentor, and I don't drink in front of my friends who are recovering alcoholics. I rarely have it in my fridge if ever. A few of us who are close and accountable to one another and at the same place in the journey will go out once in a while and enjoy a cold one. It's great. But the minute that could interfere with someone else's life/growth, etc, I'm more than willing to give it up.

Right vs. Privilege...what do you guys think?

im with ya there

This http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-3.htm seems to indicate that it is more properly translated as not given to much wine or drunkenness.

I drink in moderation... usually two beers at most with dinner sometimes. I have dealt with the issue and came to this conclusion. Jesus' FIRST recorded miracle was turning water into wine. Some of my strict "Baptist" friends are quick to remind me that the reason that Jesus turned the water into wine is because the water wasn't good back then. Upon which I say to them..."so we serve an almighty God who can turn water into wine, but he couldn't purify the water???" Also, Jesus performed another miracle at the same time. He "aged" the wine into "fine" wine as the scripture states.

So, if we are not supposed to drink alcohol, why did Jesus turn water into fine wine?

As for making a brother stumble... I believe we as Christians have perpetuated the myth of alcohol as being a sin, and so now we perpetuate another myth that if we are seen drinking we are a sinner.

you beat me to it!..but ya i agree.

idk what version you're using...but in NIV...it says .."not given to drunkenness"..which condemns excessive drinking versus no drinking at all. You're probably using KJV...which IS more closer to the original version, but as you can see it's not that easy when there's different versions. Again, it's a personal conviction, but I was just making a point.

so personal preference goes back to which "Bible version"? We have one Bible given by One God. Most versions say the same thing as "given to wine" It's one word in the original and if you look into it a little it simply means you are not a drinker. The "preference" question should not be - How close should a "church leader" get to sin? The better question should be - How far can a "church leader" stay away from sin?

amen brother. that what Steve Hill used to preach night after night. i dont want to barely make it in, i want to be so far into Him it's obvious:)

I agree that the Bible is the Bible, and I firmly believe that leaders have to set an example, and that they shouldn't play with fire. However, I do not think it's fair to say that a person who touches alcohol should be condoned because it's wrong. For some people, it's a cultural thing, and I don't see how any of us can judge their personal walk based on that. I honestly believe it comes down to the heart, and whether ______ (fill in the blank) has taken precedence over our walk with the Lord, and if it has, then changes should be made.

What? No one mentioned 1 Timothy 3:3? "not given to wine" ? where else do we have to go in scripture to find a conflicting passage? That should take care of it. I know as a church leader it does for me.

I must have been typing at the same time you posted because I missed your comment. You expressed my sentiments exactly. Love the way you assured you are the same person in public as you are in private and your comparison to sweet tea. That's it exactly!

Here is why I don't drink beer. Click here.

I'm in agreement with the majority...I think it is a personal decision if you choose for social pleasure not to get drunk or not because you NEED a drink to get through the day. There is nothing wrong with a glass of wine with a nice dinner or a beer while eating crabs or eating wings while watching football. You know what I'm talking about...nothing roudy or excessive...it's all about the taste! If a person can't drink without it leading to loudness and inappropriate behavior then they should refrain. I also believe that if a leader chooses to drink an alcoholic beverage and does so in public to be sure not to "hide" if someone walks in they know. If you drink in public you can set a good example about how to drink in moderation and remain respectable rather than appearing hypocritical or judgemental. I've seen too many "closet" drinkers that will turn their nose up at others for what they will do in their own home but never admit it. What kind of witness is that?

I'm a pastor. I drink beer. (Papa John's and beer go together like peanut butter and jelly, ham and cheese, Ike and Tina) To me it's just another choice with a meal. I order what I have a taste for, wherever I am. The person you see in public is the same person I am in private. No one ever questions my relationship with Jesus because of alcohol EXCEPT other 'Christians'. To everyone else it's normal. I also realize that a lot of people have an addiction to alcohol. To anyone who looks at a drink with alcohol as different than a good ole glass of sweet tea-shouldn't drink it.

I don't have a problem with pastors/Christians drinking so long as they don't do it to excess. I'm a Christian and I drink and brew my own beer. Like with anything else, just don't do it with the purpose of looking cool or fitting in, regardless of age. I know there are some people who tatt up or drink or dress a "part" in order to reach out to a "rough crowd". That's a mistake.

Wow, Adam, you sure can "stir the pot" :)

Personally, I have an issue with seeing church people, especially church leaders drinking and smoking. When I stop to think about it, I guess it's a personal conviction. However, my thoughts go along the line that it's a "be a good example" thing. "don't make someone else stumble" thing.

Unfortunately, my wife has a nephew who was really an anointed worship leader. Long story short, he started drinking, could not stop and is now in prison for things he did to get his fix of alcohol... shoplifting, identity theft, car theft, etc. That may be an extreme example, but I firmly believe that had he never taken that first drink (for whatever reason), he would not be in the situation that he is in. The old adage goes that the alcoholic had to take the first drink at some point. Who knows what his pastor and the church staff thought/did with regard to alcohol. Did they encourage it, set a bad example, look the other way?

The bible calls wine a mocker and warns about strong drink - and says whomever is deceived by it is not wise. I say it's best to not partake. Period. And I hope that I don't become guilty of "judging" those who do. But I have seen the effects and what CAN happen up close and personal.

For a long time I didn't drink because someone told me that as a good Christian I should not drink. Then several years ago I started questioning why I believed the things that I believe and that included drinking. In my quest to understand why I believe the things I believe I discovered that scripture is clear that it is getting drunk that is the sin not drinking. That said, I also discovered that drinking was not for me (and this without taking a sip of the stuff). My personal conviction as a leader is that I cannot always know the story of the people around me. My behavior can give someone else permission to do something that for me is not an issue but for them would be an issue, thereby causing them to stumble. So for me, I don't because I don't want to cause someone else to stumble. That is my conviction though and I don't put that on anyone else.

Many good posts above. I agree that the Bible does not say that you cannot drink it says to do not get drunk. I also know a man that was brought to Christ because the witness did not condemn him for having a beer. He accepted him like he was. I do think that there's a verse that particularly for our leaders and how they should lead and act. At least I know that those that teach us have instructions in the Bible. I personally don't think it's a problem having a drink. I would think less of the leader/Pastor etc., however , if they were drunk that would be another thing. I think leaders should lead by action, God called them to that position.

amen

For a leader, don't drink. Why go about the hassle of getting drunk when you can do other useful stuff.

You might say moderation. Maybe it's just a play of words... a way to say, it's alright I'm not that close yet.

And yep, you won't go to hell when you drink but you smell like you came from there. (Just kidding!) I don't condemn those who drink. And I don't feel any better because I don't do what they do. And also there have been a lot of discussions about the effects of drinking that even a grade school student can understand the horrors of it.

Going back to the point.


Why shoul I drink anyway?

Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.


Yes, we can drink. But will it benefit us? The people who follow us? Our families? Our society? Our work, etc?

I haven't stepped foot inside a church in some years. But if I were somewhere public (event, restaurant...wherever) and there was beer around and I saw the pastor drinking a bottle or two, or a glass of wine, I wouldn't think twice about it. Now if I saw that there was excessive drinking, I would lose any respect for the pastor. A higher standard than all the rest, sure...of course. But I don't see anything wrong with being "human" either. Personally, I would feel I could relate more. *shrugs shoulders*

And just for the record, I don't like beer or wine. lol Put a fuzzy naval or a margarita in my hand though and I'm good for the night...just one. I'll drink maybe four or five times out of the year.

For a while, we as a church worship band used to be part of an organisation called Church-in-a-pub. This was such a powerful ministry tool. What made it more powerful was that we as worship 'church' people were willing to have a beer with the people that just came to the pub, not knowing there will be a church service while they are there.

We saw plenty of people getting saved this way, but again, the main thing is that we never would have excessive amounts of beer, but maybe one, after the service, while chatting to people that had questions.

ha. yep i do

You need to get out more.

here ya go: Every church I have been to has made this a big deal

A better way to say this: Some denominations have made this a big deal for years.

Whenever four Episcopalians have gathered there is a Fifth.

sounds like a good mixture. i like it here alot in CO. about to go to sleep. have a good night brother

No. Only certain churches in their official, public stances.

Since you are from the South, I'm sure you know where the Baptist door on a bar is. And, I'm sure you know how it got its name.

St. Louis, Missouri. Episcopalian father. Southern Baptist mother.

I think you will find that the attitudes in the West are a bit different on a whole lot of things than in the South.

but yes i do agree. us southerners prob have a total different outlook on it than the rest of the world. the way i was raised i guess. at this point i feel like everybody else on here. choice of that person and personal conviction. a good topic to discuss though. where did u grow up?

haha. yes he is

the church has made this a big deal for years

im with ya man

haha...and this is blogging for ya

very true

To repeat myself, although I'm not talking about alcohol this time:

You've moved out of the South. Get over it.

oh man. i just wanted to c a fight. haha

You've moved out of the South. Get over it.

I enjoy a beer or a glass of wine every now and then, irrespective of where I am, but I think the main thing one needs to remember is that you must never lead someone else to stumble. You must be sensitive to the people around you.

If there is a recovering alcoholic close by, it might be a good idea to rather not have a beer or a glass of wine, as he/she might think that the leader can do it, surely me having a drink won't be an issue.

The Bible makes it pretty clear getting drunk is a no. It gives warning about strong drink and the effects of drinking, but there is no prohibition. In matters of conscience and stumbling, that depends on where you are serving and what your conscience will allow.

I personally took a vow not to drink, so it's pretty clear I can't! Lol

All I'm hearing is drinking in moderation... no diehard "dont drink" peeps out there? speak up

God is Holy,and He wants YOU as a leader and a true believer in HIm to be HOLY! The Gospel that I preach is a gospel of change,if your life and lifestyle isn't being changed by what you are listening too in church,then you're NOT listening to the Gospel! IT WILL CHANGE YOU IF YOU LET IT. How can we change the world if we are selfs aren't changed? "In order to turn the world upside down for Jesus,you need to let God turn you inside out." I was a former juice freak,loved the wine and the hard stuff,I knew that in order for me to give people like me a way out of the bottle I needed to change. I got off the "Old Wine" and took up the "New Wine". News flash-it's not God's will for me to hugh my toilet and burry my face into it. I used to love "Budweiser,the King of Beers" ,Budweiser never made me wiser,they should call it Bud-Dumber. Remember Jesus is the true KING the real fruit of the vine,He's that New Wine I spoke of and He'll keep up high all the time.

i don't have a problem with church staff having alcohol but i also understand that i don't
think i can judge them about it when i have an occasional glass of wine. i have recently
been considering what the purpose of having that glass of wine is. does it make dinner
taste better than sweet tea or water? is there something about the way it makes me feel (chemically or emotionally) that i am seeking. ah well, just sayin'

Do u mind if ur pastor drinks alcohol? Do u feel they should be set to a higher standard than a member of the church? At what point do we all carry the same weight?

God is Holy,and He wants YOU as a leader and a true believer in HIm to be HOLY! The Gospel that I preach is a gospel of change,if your life and lifestyle isn't being changed by what you are listening too in church,then you're NOT listening to the Gospel! IT WILL CHANGE YOU IF YOU LET IT. How can we change the world if we are selfs aren't changed? "In order to turn the world upside down for Jesus,you need to let God turn you inside out." I was a former juice freak,loved the wine and the hard stuff,I knew that in order for me to give people like me a way out of the bottle I needed to change. I got off the "Old Wine" and took up the "New Wine". News flash-it's not God's will for me to hugh my toilet and burry my face into it. I used to love "Budweiser,the King of Beers" ,Budweiser never made me wiser,they should call it Bud-Dumber. Remember Jesus is the true KING the real fruit of the vine,He's that New Wine I spoke of and He'll keep up high all the time.

I used to be VERY judgemental about this topic. I used to think that Christians should in no way drink or do similar things. Time has changed my opinion on this, now I think that there's no problem on having a drink if it is with moderation. Actually, today I had a beer with my Dad for the first time. I used to judge him on this and by randomly sitting down with him and having a beer it just broke down a wall and he had an awesome smile on his face. It was a great moment.

God is Holy,and He wants YOU as a leader and a true believer in Him to be HOLY! The Gospel that I preach is a gospel of change,if your life and lifestyle isn't being changed by what you are listening too in church,then you're NOT listening to the Gospel! IT WILL CHANGE YOU IF YOU LET IT. How can we change the world if we are selfs aren't changed? "In order to turn the world upside down for Jesus,you need to let God turn you inside out." I was a former juice freak,loved the wine and the hard stuff,I knew that in order for me to give people like me a way out of the bottle I needed to change. I got off the "Old Wine" and took up the "New Wine". News flash-it's not God's will for me to hugh my toilet and burry my face into it. I used to love "Budweiser,the King of Beers" ,Budweiser never made me wiser,they should call it Bud-Dumber. Remember Jesus is the true KING the real fruit of the vine,He's that New Wine I spoke of and He'll keep up high all the time. The real you is what you do in private,their is no such thing as a secret sin,before you do it God the Father,God the Son and the God the Holy Ghost already knew about it. Besides how can you give your money to an industry that sells a product which has been known to leave families shattered, kids destroyed and our courts filled with battered women as a result this out of control product.

The bible condemns drunkenness, not drinking - just like it condemns gluttony, not eating.

The sin comes in being excessive, and in general it is because it harms your body in both cases.

I'm in voluntary leadership (i.e. I don't get paid) in my church. There is no scripture against drinking...only drunkenness. I don't drink by personal choice, but I use to. For me, I work with teens and there are numerous pressures on them. I choose not to as an example and support to them. My daughter's father had some drinking issues and I don't want her thinking that life style is OK. An alcoholic is someone who NEEDS to drink not necessarily someone who gets hammered all the time. I guess for me it is an example thing...I have to reiterate @ineffableGod "is the non-believer seeing anything different in the believer's life or are we all the same. If it's all the same then there's a big problem."

After a careful study of scripture on the subject of drinking and prayerfully settling it with your Lord, you can sit down and have drink, then its really none of my business. As for me, I am not going to play with fire.

"And please set a good example of what the Heavenly Banquet of the Lamb is going to be in Heaven by drinking good beer. If it has "Coors," "Miller," or "Budweiser" on the label, it isn't good beer."

Now that is a wise man.......

In my opinion it's a "drink, don't get drunk" thing. There will always be opinions and speculations around things that the bible is not clear on that have caused big issues in the world.

In my opinion, being drunk is harmful to your body and therefore against treating your body like a temple. I think social drinking can be dangerous but not necessarily "wrong." I also would say that one glass of wine is healthy for your heart. My opinion for me once I am old enough is that it's okay to drink...but I intend to drink it with caution to my actions.

I don't drink, but I don't have a problem with it unless you become drunk or cause someone else to stumble.

If Jesus turned water into wine.. Then how come it says dont drink in the bible?? something like that..

The Bible condemns drunkenness, not drinking - just like it condemns gluttony, not eating.

Church leaders should neither fear alcohol nor fear others' views about their drinking. We live in a society in which alcohol has been stigmatized by holier-than-thou Christians with too much power and time on their hands. Our fear of the substance, in my opinion, has driven it's consumption underground and has only contributed to abuse and addiction. It's time for Christians to get over their fear. Alcohol is as dangerous as Dr Pepper when used incorrectly, and as sinful. Should we be sensitive to the danger of alcoholism? Absolutely. But abstinence isn't the answer. Instead, we Christians should demonstrate responsible drinking habits, just as we demonstrate how God's other creations--such as sex, food, water, etc.--can be used responsibly, as well.

I think it comes down to two things: Moderation, and Time/Place. The first is obvious, the second is a bit of a slippery slope. If someone you are around would be offended by consuming alcohol, it would probably be a good idea to abstain. Also, if you are around someone who is a recovering alcoholic, or even misuses alcohol, you probably want to abstain in that situation as well.

Also, if you personally have had issues with alcoholism, you should stay away from it.

As for being an example, if you are able to consume beverages containing alcohol without misusing them, that to me is as good an example as being a teetotaler.

In general, beverages containing alcohol should be treated as beverages, not as a recreational drug.

Jesus drank alcohol in public. Him and his disciples were accused of being having parties (while John the Baptist and his followers sang dirges).

That should settle that question. But, I know it won't.

Don't encourage another person to sin. Don't sin yourself.

If you do sin, repent and ask forgiveness. Sinning in this case includes making another follower more fit for Hell by adding Law where there should be Grace.

And please set a good example of what the Heavenly Banquet of the Lamb is going to be in Heaven by drinking good beer. If it has "Coors," "Miller," or "Budweiser" on the label, it isn't good beer.

For I think it is a moderation thing and also don't make others stumble... thin line when it comes to a church leader

I witnessed to a girl at a happy hour once, she got saved later because of it. Not saying we should all hang out in bars and get hammered sharing Jesus, but.......

Also, what @ineffableGod said....he's a solid brother in Christ, can't hurt to follow his wisdom.

I really feel like each individual person should come to his or her own conclusion on the matter. But my personal belief is that alcohol is no different than dessert. Both should be consumed in moderation and not excess. Too much alcohol leads to drunkenness, which is obviously sinful, and too much dessert, or any food, for that matter, is gluttony, a sin the church rarely if ever talks about. How many gluttonous pastors are there? Hmmm. . .probably more than alcoholics.

I personally think that it does people a disservice to condemn alcohol altogether (in a corporate body). If it's your personal choice to abstain, great, but it's NOT a command in Scripture. I grew up in a church and school where alcohol was strictly prohibited. In turn, when I actually had to make my own decisions, I found that I was not prepared because it was a topic we just didn't touch. I think that it's important not to be afraid of the subject. After all, Jesus' first miracle WAS turning water to wine. . . and it wasn't just grape juice. =) Obviously, if you choose to drink, do it with great caution and moderation. But I believe that practicing moderation in this area is just as much of a testimony as abstaining altogether.

i've heard so many views on this it's kind of too much. For me, it comes down to personal conviction. I do not think it's wrong to drink 1. if you're doing it legally (i.e. at age) and 2. it's in moderation (i.e not getting trashed). With that being said, as a church leader, you have a responsibility to be an example. As Christians, whether we realize it or not, people are always going to be watching our actions over our words. Thus, if drinking is a stumbling block for a new believer, it would not be smart to drink around them...we have to be smart. At the end of the day it comes down to this...is the non-believer seeing anything different in the believer's life or are we all the same. If it's all the same then there's a big problem. That's my 2 cents.

Hmm - I think it's ok so long as it's done in moderation (both in public and in private). I don't know how I'd feel if I was a recovering alcoholic and was at an event where even my pastor was drinking but I think that may be where some think of it as 'making others stumble' possibly??

My opinion: Church leaders should live their lives as examples of what they testify to/preach their congregation. Having an alcoholic beverage is fine (if you ask me) so long as the example of not being a glutton/overindulging in any one vice can still be gleaned from his/her behavior. Certainly not a fan of not doing something in public, but teaching that in private it's acceptable. To me there are very few things not morally reprehensible that fall into this category. Perhaps the best test for any of these issues is to ask the age old question, "What would Jesus do?"

how do u know if they r a recovering alcoholic?